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Phidippides argues for beating fathers

423 BCE, Athens (Theatre of Dionysus). Phidippides speaking, in Aristophanes’ play.

Where and when

423 BCEAthens (Theatre of Dionysus)

2,448 years ago

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Aristophanes

, Athens (Theatre of Dionysus)Phidippides speaking, in Aristophanes’ play

In plain words, ours

Wasn’t that law first proposed by a man like you or me? So why can’t I propose a new law that sons get to beat their fathers?

Was it not then a man like you and me, who first proposed this law, and by speaking persuaded the ancients? Why then is it less lawful for me also in turn to propose henceforth a new law for the sons, that they should beat their fathers in turn?

Aristophanes, Clouds line 1421Translated by William James Hickie (1853)Read the full passage (Aristophanes, Clouds line 1421, opens scaife.perseus.org)

What was going on, our summary

In Aristophanes' Clouds, Phidippides is arguing with his father Strepsiades, who admits beating him as a boy out of goodwill. Strepsiades objects that no law says a father should suffer that. Phidippides then points to roosters, who punish their fathers.

Checked claim by claim against: the passage around the quote.

Related moments

In time order, with this one in its place. Each says why it is here.

  1. 427 BCE4 years earlier Athens votes to kill Mytilene's men, then relents Also in Athens
  2. 427 BCE, written later4 years earlier Thucydides on words changing meaning Also about speech and persuasion
  3. 425 BCE2 years earlier Spartans surrender on Sphacteria Same years
  4. 424/423 BCEDuring it Thucydides fails to save Amphipolis and is exiled Same years
  5. 423 BCEThis momentPhidippides argues for beating fathers
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  9. 423 BCESame year Aristophanes' Socrates walks on air More from Aristophanes
  10. 422 BCE1 year later Cleon and Brasidas both die at Amphipolis Same years
  11. 421 BCE2 years later The Peace of Nicias Also in Athens
  12. c. 431–411 BCEDuring it Socrates on guardians sharing wives and children Same years
  13. c. 430–405 BCEDuring it Socrates would rather suffer wrong than do it Also in AthensAlso about justice and law
  14. 416 BCE, written later7 years later Athenian envoys to Melos on the strong and weak Also about justice and law
  15. c. 386 BCEabout 37 years later Socrates on Aspasia's funeral speech Also about speech and persuasion

Just before and after

The text around the quote, word for word from the same translation.

Show the passageHide the passage

Phidippides: I will pass over to that part of my discourse where you interrupted me; and first I will ask you this: Did you beat me when I was a boy?

Strepsiades: I did, through good-will and concern for you.

Phidippides: Pray tell me, is it not just that I also should be well inclined toward you in the same way, and beat you, since this is to be well inclined-to give a beating? For why ought your body to be exempt from blows and mine not? And yet I too was born free. The boys weep, and do you not think it is right that a father should weep? You will say that it is ordained by law that this should be the lot of boys. But I would reply, that old men are boys twice over, and that it is the more reasonable that the old should weep than the young, inasmuch as it is less just that they should err.

Strepsiades: It is nowhere ordained by law that a father should suffer this.

The quote: Phidippides: Was it not then a man like you and me, who first proposed this law, and by speaking persuaded the ancients? Why then is it less lawful for me also in turn to propose henceforth a new law for the sons, that they should beat their fathers in turn?

Phidippides: But as many blows as we received before the law was made, we remit: and we concede to them our having been thrashed without return. Observe the cocks and these other animals, how they punish their fathers; and yet, in what do they differ from us, except that they do not write decrees?

Strepsiades: Why then, since you imitate the cocks in all things, do you not both eat dung and sleep on a perch?

Phidippides: It is not the same thing, my friend; nor would it appear so to Socrates.

Strepsiades: Therefore do not beat me; otherwise you will one day blame yourself.

Phidippides: Why, how?

Aristophanes, Clouds lines 1408–1434Translated by William James Hickie (1853)Read the full passage (opens scaife.perseus.org)

When, and whose words

Date
423 BCE. Clouds was first staged in 423 BCE; the text that survives is a partial revision Aristophanes made a few years later, which was never staged.
Whose words
Phidippides speaking, in Aristophanes’ play.
How this post was checked
  • The plain-words line was read against the quote alone by a second, independent pass, which found it adds no claim the quote does not make (2026-10-03).
  • Each claim in the summary was checked by an independent pass against only the material it cites.
  • The quote itself is checked by the build: word for word, once, at the cited section of the stored translation.

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